Show Notes:
In episode 52, I interviewed George Couros (@gcouros) and Katie Novak (@katienovakudl), authors of the book, “Innovate Inside the Box.” George is a former teacher and administrator, speaker, and the author of the popular book, “The Innovator’s Mindset.” Katie is an assistant superintendent of schools and internationally recognized expert in universal design.
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About George Couros
My name is George Couros, and I am currently an “Innovative Teaching, Learning, and Leadership Consultant”, as well as the author of “The Innovator’s Mindset“. Formerly, I was the Division Principal of Innovative Teaching and Learning with Parkland School Division, located in Stony Plain, Alberta, Canada, and have over 17 years of experience as an educator, in a myriad of roles from K-12. I am passionate about distributed leadership within my division, and believe that creating a collaborative environment with all stakeholders, will help to ensure that we meet the best needs of all children.
I believe in the power of students, and that all of the children we can teach can be leaders if we help them find their passion. My parents came from a country that was going through a war and did not have the resources or the same opportunities that we had for education. They stressed the importance of education for their kids, and are my inspiration in my career as an educator. It is important to me that we always work to get do “what is best for kids”, and I appreciate discussion when talking about meeting the needs of students with all stakeholders. I know that as a division principal, I am only a part of the learning process, and I work hard to give everyone the opportunities to become leaders in our school community.
Personally, I am someone who is passionate about all of the things that I do. I was lucky enough to marry my best friend (Paige Couros), who is an elementary school teacher (and the best mom in the world!) who always keeps me grounded and reminds me how complex a teacher’s job is. We welcomed our beautiful daughter Kallea into the world in August of 2016 I believe that we must continuously “sharpen the saw” by taking part in other pursuits. I love running and sports, and am a HUGE fan of the Los Angeles Lakers. In fact, I have two dogs now that are named after a current and former Laker (Odom and Cooper). I do miss my dogs Kobe and Shaq who were my first pets ever (miss you buddy).
About Katie Novak
Katie Novak, Ed.D. is an internationally renowned education consultant as well as a practicing leader in education as an Assistant Superintendent of Schools at the Groton-Dunstable Regional School District in Massachusetts. With 16 years of experience in teaching and administration, an earned doctorate in curriculum and teaching, and 4 books published by CAST Professional Publishing, (and 3 forthcoming in 2019) Katie designs and presents workshops both nationally and internationally focusing on the implementation of Universal Design for Learning (UDL) and universally designed leadership.
Dr. Novak is the author of the best-selling book, Revised and Expanded Edition: UDL Now! A Teacher’s Guide to Applying Universal Design for Learning in Today’s Classrooms. Her newest book, Let Them Thrive: A Playbook for Helping Your Child Succeed in School and in Life, was endorsed by the PACER Foundation. Two additional publications, of which she is a co-author, have been endorsed by leading professors in the field of education and state departments of education. UDL in the Cloud was endorsed by the Executive Director of The Initiative on Learning and Teaching at MIT while Mitchell Chester, the late Commissioner of the Massachusetts Department of Elementary and Secondary Education (DESE), endorsed Universally Designed Leadership. Novak’s work has been highlighted in many publications including Language Magazine, Motherly, ADDitude Magazine, Commonwealth Magazine, AMLE Magazine, the Huffington Post, ASCD Education Update, and School Administrator.
Novak’s work in UDL has impacted educators worldwide as her contributions and collaborations have built upon the foundation for an educational framework that is critical for student success.
To connect with the guests:
George’s Website – https://georgecouros.ca/blog/
George’s Twitter – https://twitter.com/gcouros
Katie’s Website – https://www.novakeducation.com/
Katie’s Twitter – https://twitter.com/katienovakudl
Our Conversation
Dan Kreiness
Leaders of learning it is my privilege to bring on in this episode, the authors of the recently published innovate inside the box. And actually, this is the first time I’ve had two guests, but I really appreciate you guys joining me. And if you could, one by one, introduce yourselves, tell everybody who you are, where you are and what you do. I guess we’ll start with George.
George Couros
Hey, I’m George Couros. I’m actually live in Edmonton, Alberta. I’m actually from Humboldt, Saskatchewan. And, yeah, I’m right now an author and speaker and I’ve taught basically everything from k to 12 vice principal principal worked in central office. Yeah, just have the privilege to be able to travel around and connect and work with schools basically all over North America, some in Europe and some in South America. So yeah, it’s it’s a pretty blessed work that I do, and I was actually lucky to meet Katie Novak on at an event and we just clicked right away. I think we’ve only actually seen each other for maybe a total of an hour in our lifetime, but she kind of talked me into writing this book. So I’ll turn it over to Katie.
Katie Novak
Yeah. And now we’re best friends for life, you can’t get rid of me.
Katie Novak
Best Friends
George Couros
Best Friends
George Couros
No matter how heavy I breathe
Katie Novak
So, I’m Katie Novak. I am also a consultant and speaker and an author. I do that point two of my time. And that’s how I got to meet George I predominantly speak about universal design for learning and how to create systems that really support all students in this environment. And then for my other point eight life, I am an assistant superintendent of schools and school district outside of Boston, Massachusetts.
Dan Kreiness
Excellent. Listen, this book has been out less than a month, it’s already experiencing quite a bit of success. I’m looking right now at Amazon. It’s ranked fifth and educational administration all the way up to third and experimental education methods. I don’t even really know what that means, but it sounds cool. And I suppose that’s because innovation is in the title, I don’t know. But let’s talk about innovating inside the box. Of course, this is at least part and parcel due to the OG innovation book by George innovators mindset. The idea though about innovating inside the box. Can you talk about that a little bit, please?
George Couros
Yeah. So actually, as you say Dan the this is a follow up to the innovators mindset and actually came out of a not only interacting with Katie and Katie really, kind of showing how UDL ties into so many the concepts of you know what I talked about the universe mindset and how there’s such a beautiful blend together. But actually a comment that I got an Amazon that was a negative review on innovators mindset. And the comment was basically that, hey, this is all great. These are really great ideas, but there’s not enough stuff here for teachers. And so I kind of held on to that comment for a while and just kind of said, you know, at some point, you know, I’d like to do that. But I don’t know if I’m the person to be able to do this. And then when Katie and I connected it just tapped in so beautifully to, you know, really where I talked about kind of why these things are important. But Katie, just with all of her experiences and the role that she’s in currently and all the amazing work that’s happening in her district, just really giving strategies, you know how to make things happen in the classroom. So the notion of innovation inside the box is really understanding that there’s constraints, you know, whether it’s funding, whether it’s, you know, that we have to teach, you know, we have standardized testing, we have a curriculum we have to follow, and just kind of acknowledging that those things exist. And basically, if we’re waiting for someone to change that for us to do good things for students, we’re going to be waiting forever. So it’s really how do you work within those constraints that are there, and really kind of create your own solution to help our kids be innovators to really think differently about their own learning to really develop them as not, as not just you know, kids that can, you know, learn things but actually do something with their learning, but still do that within the constraints of education. I think that this has been part of the work that Katie gets a little bit into the work that’s happening in her district, it’s been really proven that you can it’s not innovation or the curriculum, it’s actually how you connect the two that is where we can do some really powerful learning while we’re still working on changing what the box looks like, and you know, like I said, there’s lots of people doing great work on really focusing on how to change those constraints. But, but we’re also Katie said this to me, and it just really resonated is that the grade three students are in grade three this year that this is their one year in grade three. So how do we make sure that’s the best experience possible? So that’s something that’s always stuck with me. In my conversation with Katie, and I think that’s kind of the whole premise of the book.
Dan Kreiness
Yeah. You know, one of the things that it says in the book that I think jumped out at me in terms of innovating inside the box, it says, the system or box you work within maybe the very reason you need to innovate. No matter what constraints you’re dealing with use, you can still do incredible things for your students and yourself. I think that sort of speaks to the point that you were just raising and I found it interesting that you lead off by talking about that negative comment. And I think I’ve heard about I’ve heard you speak to this in some of your recent talks. And both of you guys share quite a bit in the book. And I feel like so much of what you talk about in terms of innovation comes from experiences, like failures or other opportunities where you’ve really been able to reflect and of course, you, you speak to how much reflection is and needs to be a huge part of education, both in teachers and students alike. George, you tell a story in the book about student former student names. Kyle, can you tell us a little bit about that experience?
George Couros
Oh, well, Kyle, actually use one of my students at a school I taught at several years ago, and just he was having a moment and like I kind of talked about in the book that I’m very forward thinking but I’m also very old school and just out of nowhere he just gelled up my name and he goes George right in the middle class and so asked him to step outside and talk to him and I told him that when you know when he was 18 years old and graduated high school you can call me George all you like But until that time I expect him call me Mr. Couros and, and basically left that school went to another school district and four years later, he reaches out to me on Facebook, like basically three minutes after he turned 18 and said, Hey, George, how are you George? And he just used my name over and over again so really funny moment. So the whole premise of that story is that our words stick with are the words and actions that our kids see from us, you know, in school is teachers can stick with them for a lifetime like this kid literally held on to this for four years. So he could you know, you know, use my name and not get in trouble for it. And it actually led to another story from a teacher came up to me talking about something that he had said to a student that you know, he regrets and basically having a bad moment just saying like, you know, I could teach a rock better than I could, you know, easier than you. And then the kid next he opened class, he said, and he put a rock on his desk, and said, well prove it. And basically, that teacher’s have, like, carried that rock for basically 25 plus years of this career as a reminder of how important our words are. And so I think that, you know, looking at those moments, and, you know, obviously, every one of us, you know, as educators wants to be 100%, and never have those bad moments, but it’s not a reality. And I think my friend, Megan Lawson, talked about that, that you know, we can’t strive for perfection, but we, we strive for excellence, but understanding that, you know, vulnerability and and screwing up is part of the process. And so how do we learn from that? And so I think, you know, that’s really, you know, something that Katie and I are both really focused on is that, that the ideas that we share, none of them could be carbon copy, because everyone’s context is so different. But we want people to try and be willing to take some risk and do some different things, you know, but the pursuit is always to be our best for kids and like I said we’re not 100%, none of us ever are, but we always are striving for excellence, you know, in our classrooms. And so I think that’s that’s kind of the the big thing that we try to focus on. And I think both Katie and I embody because we share a lot of personal stories about our own struggles, so that people know that we’re part of this process with them. It’s not, you know, we’re the experts. And you know, we’re conveying all this wisdom. It’s that, hey, we’re all doing this together to do our best to help kids.
Dan Kreiness
Yeah, I really appreciated that about what I read from the book that both of you guys really shared a lot. Katie, do you have an experience that has really stuck with you kind of like the ones that George shared with that student, Kyle?
Katie Novak
Oh, I mean, I have so many of them. You know, one of the things that I I always used to say to kids is at the end of the year, I would ask them, instead of doing a final for their themselves, I would literally pass out a copy of all of the standards that I was required to teach that year. And so the last year that I was teaching, I was a seventh grade English teacher. And so I literally took a copy of all the standards that I was required to teach. And I said, Okay, here’s your final, like, get into groups go through all of these, and I want you to assign me a grade for each of them. But you have to be able to support that grade. So if you look at a standard, you know, say, you know, I understand how, you know, complex characters interact with plot and setting, for example, and you’re going to tell me that like, Yes, I I totally get it like, then you’re going to give me an A, but then you have to tell me why like, what was memorable? What did we do, and it’s like, oh, remember when we read this book, or when we get to do this activity. And at the end of the year, I’d say if you’re going to give me if you’re going to give me an F, which means that everyone in the group is a little bit murky on like, what the language means or you don’t feel like you can do it, then I want you to tell me that as well. And so all of them really worked in like isolated groups, and they’re working on this for a long period. And so I said okay, so you know, today, we went through kind of this, you know, all of the language standards. So like, tell me, you know, how I did, and I still remember this kid he set up, and he’s like, I, I’m not trying to be mean, and like, you know, when a kid 13 year old starts off with, I’m not trying to be mean, like it’s going to dark places. And so he said to me under kind of mean, but like we had to give you an F for language standard. And I still remember it was five. And it was to explain the function of phrases and clauses in general and their function in specific sentences. Now, if you’re not an English teacher, you’re like, you know, I’m talking gobbledygook. But they were like you You did a, you know, you did so great everywhere else. But like, we are concerned that you actually don’t know what that is. And I would like dying, laughing. And I was like, No, I definitely know what that is like, I promise you, I know what that is. Like, you know, I have a very strong background in linguistics. I know the difference between a phrase and a clause. I know what their function is. And they were like, but I don’t really think that you do. And I was like, wait what do you what are you talking about? You don’t think that I do. And all the other groups were like, actually, we failed you on that one, too. And it was like, they weren’t like it wasn’t like a conspiracy because they weren’t talking together. But it was like this moment where I was like, Guys, am I that bad at teaching grammar? And they’re all like, you’re really bad at that. It was just this really cool moment that I’m like, Why didn’t you tell me like Have I been bad at it all year? And they’re like, but you’re so good at other things, Novak, it’s okay. But like, yeah, you’re really, really bad at that. And it was just like this, this moment, where I’m like, Oh my gosh, like 100 different seventh graders knew that, like, my grammar game was off. And no one ever told me but it’s, it’s just that like, the things that kids pick up on is like, you know, this concept of like, Oh, no, things are going really well. You know, I’m sure it’s going well, like when you actually, you know, have kids open up. You know, obviously, for George, it wasn’t as invited necessarily for it, you know, but, but they pick up on everything. And they know when they’re getting a raw deal. And they know when they’re getting a high quality education. And they know when they’re being asked to innovate, and they know when they’re asked to regurgitate. And so we really have to kind of honor their process and allow them to share their experiences.
Dan Kreiness
You know, it’s funny, I’m sitting here, and I can think of very similar experience, experiences that I share with both of you from a little bit earlier in my career. George, had a student very much like Kyle, I am as they say, follicly challenged and he would run by my classroom and open the door and yell, Baldy. And, yeah, we didn’t, we didn’t get off to such a hot start that year, but ended up building a pretty decent relationship throughout the school year. And Katie, I think I was one of the few teachers that I really knew who was giving similar, you know, forms as feedback that the students could essentially give to me in terms of my instruction. And I don’t remember where there’s my first year, second year teaching, but it was within the first two years, some of the comments started to form this pattern of Mr. Kreiness, you’re a little bit moody. And I was like, Really? I am? Like, I? I don’t know, I didn’t think I was and I, I kind of chalked it up to Well, I think that means that when we really like to, you know, have fun and let loose a little, that’s great. But also, I’m really serious about getting the work done. And sometimes it might be a little confusing when I flip that switch. But I think that’s what they meant, or at least I hope that’s what they meant. But yeah, it was really, it was really a great opportunity to reflect on my practices. And I love that you guys brought that up in the book as well. Another thing that you bring up fairly early on in the book, is this idea that there’s a big difference, let’s say, between engagement and empowerment. Can you guys speak to that a little bit?
Katie Novak
Yeah
George Couros
Katie, you go ahead. I want to hear what you have to say about this.
Katie Novak
So, and when we’re talking about UDL, there’s three principles of of universal design. And it’s essentially, you know, really, really challenging educators to look at the design of learning experiences. So all students can, can really equally be a part of the, you know, accessing those experiences and feeling engaged with those experiences. And the three principles of UDL are really reminding educators that there has to be really flexible pathways in engaging students teaching students, and then, you know, assessing students. And so we say that we want to design lessons so that we’re providing multiple means of engagement. So really providing multiple pathways for students to engage, we’re going to provide multiple means of representation, which is multiple pathways for students to actually build understanding and content through teaching. And then to provide multiple means of action and expression, which is like numerous ways for students to act on what they know, to share their learning. And when you’re looking at engagement, there’s actually three different aspects of engagement in the UDL literature. And that is if we really want to engage students with equal parts attention, and commitment. And so we want to get their attention by recruiting their interest. And that’s really surface level, like I can get kids interested in almost anything with like a decent hook, you know, I just need to get their attention. And then it goes into the ability to sustain effort and persistence and the ability to self regulate. So you know, I want to get their attention so that when things get challenging, they are willing to continue to put in effort, and that sometimes requires some ability to cope. So when you’re thinking about engagement and UDL, you’re thinking about the willingness to stick with something that you’re being asked to do. Empowerment takes that a step further by saying, it’s not only like I am, I am willing to stick with this to kind of see it through the goal is I am driven to like blow this out of the park. So engagement is more, okay, here’s the goal, I am interested, I have access points, I have the tools, I need to continue to work hard, and I have the tools I need to cope so I can meet the goal. empowerment is like engagement on educational steroids, which means that I am engaged, but I am really internally driving this this learning experience for myself, as opposed to you know, I’m going to follow along with this experience. So you know, you can be engaged and not necessarily really empowered to kind of go beyond, but you cannot be empowered without being engaged. So we’re trying to basically say, Yes, we want students to be engaged, we want them to be interested, we want them to sustain effort, and we want them to self regulate. But in addition to that, we really want them to be able to drive these experiences in places beyond what a teacher could even imagine.
George Couros
And I think that’s it. This is a conversation that Katie and I had because of the I don’t want to say I don’t know if it’s a traditional, but the notion of like how engagement and the notion of UDL really looks like the way I talk about the importance of empowerment. And I think one of the reasons that we kind of distinguish between the two is that, you know, when I’m thinking about, you know, starting off as a teacher, and like engagement was a thing. And it was all about what the teacher did for the student, really. And there was sometimes we’d have this conversation about, you know, kids being active in their learning, but a lot of times they’re, they might be active, but they have no interest. And I think that when we talk about empowerment, we’re really trying to distinguish between, you know, like, like, like Katie said, there’s the two, it’s not like, it’s an either or scenario that when you’re empowering students, they’re actively obviously engaged in their learning, but they also have more ownership, they have more agency to the process. And it doesn’t mean that you’re always creating, but do I actually have any say, on the types of books that I get to read or the type of you know, as Katie is talking about the type of, you know, things I get to create, you know, in my work that represents and showcase what I’ve actually learned? And so I think that we really kind of wanted to distinguish those to really get people to think about you know, that it’s, it’s going beyond simply what the teacher does for the student, and really helping the teacher guide the student in finding a pathway for themselves, because that’s a skill that goes way beyond what we can ever do that, you know, it goes beyond the importance of school, obviously, it goes on to like, what how we, you know, do how we, you know, create our own opportunities in life.
Dan Kreiness
And similar to something that I’ve discussed here on the show recently, based on a book that I just finished up not too long ago, the coaching habit, I think, you guys talk a lot about asking questions. As a matter of fact, I took a little excerpt from the book, it says that, you know, how can you empower students when you feel stuck within a certain curriculum that one simple way to quote innovate inside the box is as simple as shifting your focus and your learner’s focus from getting the right answers to asking better questions. I think that’s such an amazing point. And it’s one that I personally have really stuck to, as we start this school year, in my role as an instructional coach, even though I’m not in the classroom, I still think it has a lot of value, even with adult learning as well. Sticking with sort of that theme of you know, getting to know your learners and asking the right questions, and really letting them sort of sit in the driver seat of their own, have their own education in the book, and I believe it was George who used the term you said data driven is the stupidest term in education.
Dan Kreiness
Can you expand that that thought process a little bit?
George Couros
Yup
George Couros
Yeah, I get a lot of, I get a lot of questions about that it sparks a lot of conversation which actually is kind of the point to actually kind of jolt people a little bit, because the term data driven, is, is thrown around. And Katie and I were actually just talking about this with someone else about when when people are using the term data driven. And I actually, like, legitimately, I’m not a fan of the term, because not because of the intent of the people that are saying it. Because, you know, my belief is always the educators, you know, people that are working with an education, they’re doing everything they can to serve kids. And I think, you know, the people that talk about data driven, that’s something that they’re really trying to do is to help kids, it’s more on what teachers hear. And I think that when you hear the term data driven, and I’ll tell you, I make that statement, speaking at conferences, and if it’s a teacher conference, I usually get like applause. And if I get, if I’m at a principal conference, or a superintendent conference, it’s like jaws open dropped to the floor, because they’ve said it so often. And a lot of times when teachers hear the term data driven, they’re just like, hey, it’s all about the score. That’s all that matters it’s like, let’s get these scores, we got to get these scores up. And so what we talked about in the book is the idea of learner driven, evidence informed is that we have to know the students in front of us who they are, what makes them tick, you know, really developing, thinking about them as people. And then we use evidence. And the reason I talked about the term evidence versus data is because the way data is perceived is basically, if I can’t measure it, and put a number on it, it’s not valuable, where evidence, you know, can be in the stories we tell, it can be in the extracurricular things that we do. But it can also be the tests and assignments that we take care of, as well. And so really understand the kids in front of us and using the evidence to support their learning. And so I think that’s when when I look at why I became a teacher is to help kids not to focus solely on scores, right? Like you want these, there’s a lot of kids that could do well on a test. But if you ask them to if they do they really understand it two weeks later, the content a lot of times they don’t is this, they’ve done everything to do well on a test and cram in. And I think that we we focus too often on test scores, as opposed to really deep learning. And I think that if you do really deep learning by knowing the students in front of you, the test will be fine. And I think that’s something we got to really understand about the work that we’re doing.
Dan Kreiness
I have to say, and I agree with you, I think the word data is is overused and maybe under under understood. Does that make sense? Misunderstood. And I I, to be honest, I think that now as a doctoral student, who is about to conduct my own qualitative research, I think that I have a different and deeper understanding of the, quote unquote, softer data. So I kind of get it. But I think you’re right, I think the word evidence makes a lot more sense. Because it’s not just that quantitative statistical type of data that we always want to focus on with the students. And some people may still consider it data, other people not. But I do appreciate the fact that the word evidence probably makes a lot more sense.
George Couros
And I actually, like Dan I actually go through in the book, like the actual definition of the term data, and how it actually is really the same as evidence, but it is the perception of the word that matters more than the definition. Because if I only
Dan Kreiness
Exactly
George Couros
That’s, I think that’s why we’re trying to make that shift.
Dan Kreiness
Yeah, exactly. Okay. So the way the book is laid out, it develops a lot of these ideas, and then you guys sort of trade on and off. And I think that’s when Katie really brings her expertise in with this UDL lens, so to speak on, you know, like, we already talked about engagement and empowerment, and really creating super deep learning experiences and opportunities for students. Katie, if you could just take us back a little bit and explain UDL at least on a on a basic level. So we could understand if we’re not too familiar with that term yet. And then how does that fit in in terms of really designing powerful learning experiences?
Katie Novak
So I’m going to give you an analogy, which I use sometimes when I present, which is essentially, imagine that you’re having a dinner party, and I’m going to bring 25 strangers over to your house. And your goal is to make sure that all of them not only have an amazing time, but have like a really well balanced, delicious meal. Now, in this scenario, would you ever in a billion years make a casserole?
George Couros
No, no one would ever.
Katie Novak
You would not make a casserole. Okay, so here’s the thing, but but in the 1970s people made casseroles all the time, they would serve a lasagna, they would serve, you know, a beef stew, they would serve a pot roast. And it’s essentially you’re going to make one thing and you’re going to plate it and everybody gets the same thing on a plate. Now, if you were to do that now and I were to invite 25 friends over. Why, like what would be the hesitation of making a meat lasagna and putting it in front of everyone?
Dan Kreiness
A casserole? No, yeah, no.
Dan Kreiness
You’re assuming that everybody’s going to like that, right?
Katie Novak
Well, not even like it is like I can say that some people might not like it. But even more interestingly is that some people might not be able to eat that they might not be able to access it. So you could have people who are vegan, you could have people who have a lactose intolerant, a gluten sensitivity, you know, then you have the eaters that don’t have any of those things, and they still can’t eat it. And so the reality is, is when we design a lesson, that is one size fits all, or casserole-like we expect everyone to come forth to our classroom table, and experience the same meal, you know, with the analogy is I know before even getting to know my students, that that’s a bad idea. And so if I were to come over and say I’m going to bring 25 people over to your house, I want them all to love what you’re making, you would put out something much more buffet-like like a taco bar, or make your own pizza, or you know, there’s some salads on the side, what you would do is you would provide options and choices. And then everybody can kind of personalize their own meal. And the same exact thing is true in the classroom is you start with your goals. So my goal for your party was everyone has a great time, everyone has a delicious meal. Our standards are actually designed that way our goals are designed that way, you know that students will understand and be able to explain the process of photosynthesis that all students will understand in reading a book that complex characters interact with setting that students will understand, you know how to, to use a quadratic equation, for example. And so we have these goals. And those goals are really, really broad and open. And then what we generally do is we decide, well, this is the way that I’m going to get kids to this goal, assuming that all of them, quote unquote, like the way that we’re doing it, and that quote, unquote, can access that right. And so you could end up serving a lasagna, and some kids are like, that’s literally disgusting. I am not eating that. And then they’re not going to eat. But the same thing happens in a classroom is, you know, if you haven’t really thought ahead of time about how do I make this relevant and authentic to my students, you might have kids that are just like, this is so boring, I’m not paying attention, and then learning doesn’t happen. And so what UDL is saying is is that we we can predict that one size fits all is not going to meet the needs of all students. And instead we’re going to think about what our goals are. And we’re going to provide options and choices that will allow our students to get there. So in a typical High School science class, if I want all students to know about photosynthesis, I will likely you know, either have them read about photosynthesis, or watch a video about photosynthesis, or we’ll all do some activity together. And there are probably a million ways that you could learn about the process of photosynthesis if you had access to technology and some really reputable scientific sites, or that if you were just allowed to kind of create your own lab. And often we don’t empower students to create those journeys. And so UDL is a reminder that says that when we design something in a one size fits all way and expect all students to do the same thing. They will face barriers to either access or engagement and to eliminate that we provide pathways to empower students to create journeys that yes will be challenging, yes will require them to sustain effort and persistence. Yes, will require them to self regulate, but it will be worth doing. Because the process is one that they are personalizing and customizing for themselves.
Dan Kreiness
I love all that. And and a couple of things that I took away from the book, almost, I would say safely say that among the whole book, these are a couple of my biggest takeaways was when you started to really get into the ideal of UDL. And that it’s, you know, not just that one size fits all. And here were a couple of excerpts, let’s say so one, and I apologize, I don’t quite remember which of you wrote this, but one says my role as an educator became even more important when I stepped out of the spotlight, because it required me to craft and personalize my message to all students, instead of throwing it out in a one size fits all ball and hoping they all caught it. Another was the goal is not to develop our students, as people who provide solutions to well known problems, there’s probably way too much of that in the world as it is this is about helping students seek out problems that are meaningful to them, and then finding ways to solve or respond to those issues. So again, becoming much more personalized, and dare I say differentiated for each individual student. And what was great is that you guys followed that up in the book with talking about risks, and and that ever popular word or it’s becoming more and more popular now failure too. So bringing in that risk piece, how do you see that fitting into the equation?
George Couros
I think the when we talk about risk, and I give like a definition of that risk is moving from comfortable average in pursuit of an unknown better, which is something that you know, makes it much more attainable. Lot of times when you hear the word risk, you’re you’re basically thinking or insinuating danger. And the reality of it is that a lot of teachers take, you know, little tiny risks, in they’re teaching and learning every single day trying something that they might not necessarily have done before. But they’re seeing that a student struggles and with something and they’re not just totally relating, or, you know, relying on their past practice, they’re trying to figure out new ideas. And I think for me, the the other analogy that I make that is really important is that if you were not to try something different, there is a risk there, as well. But it actually has much could have much worse consequences when we don’t, you know, try things that are different to, you know, because of the students that are, you know, our struggles, you know, some of our students are struggling, what happens when we lose them. And I think that’s a really important distinction in the work that we’re actually trying to talk about is that we have to see that we we get uncomfortable with trying, we get comfortable with trying new things. And I think that’s something that you know, teachers have to really focus on is that we’ve learned a lot in our practice. But you we know that every day in a classroom is totally different. It’s unpredictable. What our students needs are, and I think, moving away from just trying things because we’ve known them as bad and I actually make the distinction on, and I’ve been guilty of this, basically equating the word traditional with bad practice. And I don’t think traditional practices is necessarily bad, I think bad practices bad. And I’ll give you an example. For example, storytelling is probably the oldest teaching strategy in the world. And it’s still relevant to this day. And so I think that some traditional practices work really well with our students as well. But we have to, it’s all in pursuit of ensuring we do what’s best for kids. So I know Katie, you can talk a little bit about, you know, the failure portion and why that matters.
Katie Novak
Yeah, we always, you know, we talk about one of the things I always say is that, like, you know, its success is really, you know, a journey of how you get from micro failure to micro failure, that you know, anything worth achieving is worth achieving, in part because it’s a little bit out of reach. And so you know, the things that we aspire to accomplish, the things we aspire to know, are things that in some way, are, you know, held up at the top of this, this journey, and if they were easy to get, it wouldn’t be nearly as rewarding to get them. And so, you know, when you have people like, you know, I, I ran a marathon last October, and it was like, you know, I was across country runner, for me running five ten miles wasn’t that big of a deal. And it was like, you know, you want to choose a goal that’s like out of your reach, because then that means something, and we want this new thing to happen in classrooms. But the reality is, is when you aspire to do something that is hard to do, there will not be a really linear clean journey to that, and that is okay. And if you talk to anybody training for a marathon, you know, they’re going to have days that it’s like pouring, or snowing and you’re like, I don’t want to go out there, or that you have blisters or that you pull a muscle or that, you know, you’re you’re fueling your refueling strategy isn’t working, or the time you run out of water and had to like walk back, you know, those things, some people could look at them and say, This isn’t worth it anymore. And those people who keep going are in some ways, overcoming failure. And we’re not talking about these big epic failures. But you know, rather than every success is made up of a lot of micro failures, it’s made up of a lot of choices to do the thing that’s harder. And we want to encourage students to see that because you know, one of the things when you teach seventh grade, seventh grade ELA, I taught for, you know, almost 10 years, when when you teach seventh graders, and you ask them what they want to accomplish, many of them want to be professional athletes. And it’s because being a professional athlete is is this such an incredible, incredible reach. And and we want students to reach for those things. And you know, maybe they never become the professional athlete, but do they they enjoy, you know, being in college intramurals, like do they get the best they can in any sport. And you know, those those people who do end up so one of my seventh grade students is actually one of the best players in the NHL right now, which is kind of fun. Jack Eichel. And, you know, how many times did he probably say, you know, what, maybe this isn’t actually going to happen for me, and then it did. So it’s, it’s, that’s what we’re trying to say to teachers is, you know, keep going, keep going, keep going. And if you don’t get exactly where you want to be, you’re sure as heck are going to get a lot further than if you didn’t try.
Dan Kreiness
Yeah, and you know, again, it’s becoming a little cliche, I think, to talk about in education about failure being the first attempt in learning, but it’s definitely thematic through what you guys say, and your experiences and your, your your knowledge and your thoughts in the book. Actually, one of the things that I appreciated that you wrote in there, dealing with risk and failure was even the mention of like, failure portfolios. And, and I had heard that somewhere recently, and then when I read it, I was like, Oh, my God, is this really becoming a thing? But I get the concept of it. And it sounds kind of silly to like, literally put all your failures, like down on paper, maybe. But it is important to keep those things in mind. And as you guys talked about, even early on in our conversation here, and as you discussed throughout the book, you each had had experiences, that things didn’t go so well for you. But you, you, you know, you persevered, you push through it, and now you’re better for it. And so obviously, that’s what we hope for in our teachers and our students. As we wrap up, is there anything that I have neglected to ask you, or that you really wanted to let the listeners know about the book or anything that you needed to, to really get in there that you wanted them to know about the book?
George Couros
I think, just kind of building on what you just said, the book came out of a connection that Katie and I had just kind of seeing how UDL and really Katie brought this to my attention, you know, how UDL just totally tied into the notion, the innovators mindset. And the whole premise of the book is that we wanted to create something that really empowered and inspired educators to try something different. But we wanted to make it practical, and something you could just, you know, read all at once, or you could kind of go back and reference to give you some ideas. And so the thing that I really appreciate about Katie, and what she brought to this whole process is just all the, it’s amazing all the ideas that she has that still tie into the curriculum, tie into the work that we’re doing. But and she makes him so accessible. And we were actually just talking about part of the process. And Katie really helped me make the Where is that when we talk about removing barriers. For students, it’s actually not just the teacher doing it, but actually teaching the students how to actually remove barriers so that they can find their success, you know, as I said, not only in school, but later on in life. And so, really proud of how this turned out. Because we we we do tell a lot of stories, because we know how hard it is to read, you know, some education books that they’re, they might challenge your thinking, but they’re hard to get, you know, to read. And we want to make this something you could literally read on the beach, and just kind of be enjoyable, you know, make you smile a little bit, challenge you, make you you know, you know, maybe some few tears here and there, but also something that’s really accessible to give teachers ideas in the context of the work that they do. And I think that’s something that we really strive for. And the feedback we’re getting so far is incredible.
